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  3. Generative AI is a Faustian bargain.

Generative AI is a Faustian bargain.

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  • jack@xeno.glyphpress.comJ jack@xeno.glyphpress.com

    @corigan01 @benlockwood

    Sounds like you already have other ways of managing ADHD that work for you. That's cool.

    I don't think it's the right assistive device for every case.

    In my case, though, it works very well. I did have a stage early on where I'd get distracted playing with the AI, but once that got boring, no problems.

    corigan01@todon.nlC This user is from outside of this forum
    corigan01@todon.nlC This user is from outside of this forum
    corigan01@todon.nl
    wrote sidst redigeret af
    #24

    @jack @benlockwood

    Managing ADHD is a skill, just like one's health or fitness. By offloading the development of this skill to AI, you're worsening your symptoms over time.

    jack@xeno.glyphpress.comJ 1 Reply Last reply
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    • wraptile@fosstodon.orgW wraptile@fosstodon.org

      @benlockwood I don't think that's necessarily true.

      Sure if you don't ride the bike every day you're worse bike rider but finishing races also makes you a better bike rider.

      I'm a senior dev and consider myself a good'ish coder and while LLMs do make me worse at memorizing APIs I ship so much more which on it's own a very useful skill to train.

      At the end of the day it's just another computer. If you use the one that's in your skull as well then you'll be just perfectly fine.

      minos@mamot.frM This user is from outside of this forum
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      #25

      @wraptile @benlockwood I don’t know man, it feels a bit sad that to compare your brain to « just another computer », or that shipping more code would have anything to do with realizing your potential on this earth.

      When it comes to growing as a person, we all know that the quest is what really matters.

      wraptile@fosstodon.orgW 1 Reply Last reply
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      • wraptile@fosstodon.orgW wraptile@fosstodon.org

        @wilkuu @benlockwood now you're conflating two things: memorization and growth.

        For growth we can already agree that diversification and exploration are very important which AI tools absolutely enable.

        For memorization blind repetition is not the way to go either. The most effective memorization strategy rn is spaced repetition and you might hit that with writing same code over and over but you can also hit it (even better) by writing the same code ever 2 days or even less often.

        wilkuu@hachyderm.ioW This user is from outside of this forum
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        #26

        @wraptile @benlockwood

        I feel like I am underestimating how repetitive the codebases you work on are.

        But personally, I get enough novel problems in programming where there is little repetition and I get to learn new patterns.

        I am quite young so I might have not reached the ceiling you might be encountering.

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        • minos@mamot.frM minos@mamot.fr

          @wraptile @benlockwood I don’t know man, it feels a bit sad that to compare your brain to « just another computer », or that shipping more code would have anything to do with realizing your potential on this earth.

          When it comes to growing as a person, we all know that the quest is what really matters.

          wraptile@fosstodon.orgW This user is from outside of this forum
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          #27

          @Minos @benlockwood your brain is absolute a computer _but_ also more than a computer.

          And I didn't say "ship more code" but _create more_ to the very end where it's more than just exploration of an idea but a full product. Finishing stuff matters. Diversity of experience matters.

          AI tools absolutely great for this unless you don't know how to use them or too weak willed/unfortunate enough to get caught by sub-optimal paths which is absolutely a valid and real issue for some.

          B 1 Reply Last reply
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          • corigan01@todon.nlC corigan01@todon.nl

            @jack @benlockwood

            Managing ADHD is a skill, just like one's health or fitness. By offloading the development of this skill to AI, you're worsening your symptoms over time.

            jack@xeno.glyphpress.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
            jack@xeno.glyphpress.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
            jack@xeno.glyphpress.com
            wrote sidst redigeret af
            #28

            @corigan01 @benlockwood If I were resorting to it constantly, I might agree, but I'm not. It's a last resort for really bad days. (And to be clear, I'm not a classic ADHD case; I'm borderline but with other shit going on, as well).

            mathew@universeodon.comM 1 Reply Last reply
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            • sus@timeloop.cafeS sus@timeloop.cafe

              @jack it was hard to read this without hearing echoes of all the ways using accessibility tools and adaptations are treated as “accepting weakness,” “giving up”, etc even though I’m sure that’s not what @benlockwood was thinking about

              jack@xeno.glyphpress.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
              jack@xeno.glyphpress.comJ This user is from outside of this forum
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              #29

              @sus @benlockwood

              Oh, for sure.

              We're not used to thinking of mental stuff as benefiting from assistive devices or prostheses the way we are with physical disabilities.

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • corigan01@todon.nlC corigan01@todon.nl

                @tylnesh @benlockwood

                Muscles are not your brain, you give up your humanity when you use AI.

                tylnesh@fosstodon.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
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                #30

                @corigan01 @benlockwood

                It's a metaphore... Also, you should stop using the contact list in your phone, since if you don't spend time remembering phone numbers, you give up your humanity.

                corigan01@todon.nlC rasterweb@mastodon.socialR 2 Replies Last reply
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                • tylnesh@fosstodon.orgT tylnesh@fosstodon.org

                  @corigan01 @benlockwood

                  It's a metaphore... Also, you should stop using the contact list in your phone, since if you don't spend time remembering phone numbers, you give up your humanity.

                  corigan01@todon.nlC This user is from outside of this forum
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                  #31

                  @tylnesh @benlockwood I understand its a metaphor, however, I am saying it misses the point of the argument being made.

                  I don't agree the contacts list on my phone and an AI are the same magnitude of thing.

                  painting_squirrel@muenchen.socialP 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • corigan01@todon.nlC corigan01@todon.nl

                    @wraptile @benlockwood

                    AI != Riding a bike

                    rasterweb@mastodon.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
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                    #32

                    @corigan01 @wraptile @benlockwood AI = Self-Driving Car where you lose your skills and abilities because you hand it all over to a machine.

                    wraptile@fosstodon.orgW 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • rasterweb@mastodon.socialR rasterweb@mastodon.social

                      @corigan01 @wraptile @benlockwood AI = Self-Driving Car where you lose your skills and abilities because you hand it all over to a machine.

                      wraptile@fosstodon.orgW This user is from outside of this forum
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                      #33

                      @rasterweb @corigan01 @benlockwood maybe in 10 years or so but you still need to do plenty of driving right now to get anywhere.

                      rasterweb@mastodon.socialR 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • tylnesh@fosstodon.orgT tylnesh@fosstodon.org

                        @corigan01 @benlockwood

                        It's a metaphore... Also, you should stop using the contact list in your phone, since if you don't spend time remembering phone numbers, you give up your humanity.

                        rasterweb@mastodon.socialR This user is from outside of this forum
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                        #34

                        @tylnesh @corigan01 @benlockwood Confusing memorization with actual learning is part of what has gotten us in the mess we are in now.

                        tylnesh@fosstodon.orgT 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • wraptile@fosstodon.orgW wraptile@fosstodon.org

                          @rasterweb @corigan01 @benlockwood maybe in 10 years or so but you still need to do plenty of driving right now to get anywhere.

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                          #35

                          @wraptile @corigan01 @benlockwood Alternately you can ride a bike to many places. 😜

                          wraptile@fosstodon.orgW jeantranscene@mastodon.socialJ 2 Replies Last reply
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                          • rasterweb@mastodon.socialR rasterweb@mastodon.social

                            @wraptile @corigan01 @benlockwood Alternately you can ride a bike to many places. 😜

                            wraptile@fosstodon.orgW This user is from outside of this forum
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                            #36

                            @rasterweb @corigan01 @benlockwood Yeah but a more modern form of transportation will get you much further 😛

                            all fun aside, these analogies are a good reminder that there are no really new problems here and we'll defeat them all the same!

                            corigan01@todon.nlC B 2 Replies Last reply
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                            • benlockwood@ecoevo.socialB benlockwood@ecoevo.social

                              Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.

                              deliachristina@sfba.socialD This user is from outside of this forum
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                              wrote sidst redigeret af
                              #37

                              @benlockwood

                              That's overstating it a bit.
                              Is it great? No.
                              Do some folks use it? Yes.
                              Do some folks have good use cases for it? Yes.
                              Is their *humanity* diminished?

                              C'mon, now.

                              msbellows@c.imM 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • benlockwood@ecoevo.socialB benlockwood@ecoevo.social

                                Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.

                                jimmylittle@hachyderm.ioJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote sidst redigeret af
                                #38

                                @benlockwood @Gargron Depends on how you use it. I think it makes me better because I let AI organize my files and deal with mundane task management, giving me more time for my hobbies and creative pursuits.

                                Let the robot do the robot stuff, and free up the humans to do more humane things.

                                gargron@mastodon.socialG 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • benlockwood@ecoevo.socialB benlockwood@ecoevo.social

                                  Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.

                                  mamalake@beige.partyM This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  wrote sidst redigeret af
                                  #39

                                  @benlockwood this comment section has given me so many valuable lessons in blocking before arguing with unaware people. Thank you.

                                  sproid@bohio.icuS wendinoakland@beige.partyW dnkboston@apobangpo.spaceD 3 Replies Last reply
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                                  • wraptile@fosstodon.orgW wraptile@fosstodon.org

                                    @rasterweb @corigan01 @benlockwood Yeah but a more modern form of transportation will get you much further 😛

                                    all fun aside, these analogies are a good reminder that there are no really new problems here and we'll defeat them all the same!

                                    corigan01@todon.nlC This user is from outside of this forum
                                    corigan01@todon.nlC This user is from outside of this forum
                                    corigan01@todon.nl
                                    wrote sidst redigeret af
                                    #40

                                    @wraptile @rasterweb @benlockwood like maybe a train/tram?

                                    I love riding my bike, then getting on my bike accessable tram, and finally getting back on my bike once at my desired stop. I can get quite far in very little time!

                                    Hopefully you aren't trying to imply a car here...

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                                    • benlockwood@ecoevo.socialB benlockwood@ecoevo.social

                                      Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.

                                      jeantranscene@mastodon.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      wrote sidst redigeret af
                                      #41

                                      @benlockwood We've been doing faustian bargain with stuff that weaken us since the wheel was invented and probably way longer before that. AI is just the latest in a very, very long list.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • benlockwood@ecoevo.socialB benlockwood@ecoevo.social

                                        Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.

                                        johnzajac@dice.campJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        johnzajac@dice.camp
                                        wrote sidst redigeret af
                                        #42

                                        @benlockwood

                                        But you don't save a few minutes, and the output is notably and dispositively worse than if you'd just done it yourself.

                                        "Faustian" implies that there's a benefit that eventually leads to ruin. LLMs have no benefit; they are all ruin: ecological, social, cognitive, and economic.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • tylnesh@fosstodon.orgT tylnesh@fosstodon.org

                                          @benlockwood electrically powered tools are a faustian bargain. Every use of them weakens you...

                                          Electric drill diminishes your use of muscles that could've been used for hammering nails manually

                                          daie@toot.walesD This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          wrote sidst redigeret af
                                          #43

                                          @tylnesh @benlockwood

                                          If you're using an electric drill to hammer nails in, you're going to break your drill. Use a hammer.

                                          [Or were you making a point about using approriate tools for the task? It's not clear.]

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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