I really didn’t have money on Proton crashing and burning as a trusted community partner and company due to leadership AI psychosis this rapidly.
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@trianderror @mrclark @hacks4pancakes Wow. To describe Gmail as feature rich worries me. Gmail doesn't even support folders.
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Holy crap he is getting shredded on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1xilgwk/comment/19ru2qt4r4r5u/
@hacks4pancakes shreddit.com
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@hacks4pancakes Not to toot *giggle* my own horn, but when I decided to de-Google two years ago, I did in fact consider the then-known, ahem, attitudes of the Proton CEO to be red flags & that's why I decided not to go with Proton, by far the most obvious option at the time.
When people tell us who they are, we should believe them & when a company is run by a person with questionable positions and/or ethics, we should assume that this is what the company stands for. Because it always is.
@jwcph @hacks4pancakes Well OK but if you've been on it for years - since early days?
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@hacks4pancakes And nothing out there seems to fulfill all our criteria. Tuta appears to be a popular choice, but isn't without problems. I think that's another reason I hadn't already moved - when I last looked around, I wasn't happier about anything else.
I've done self-hosting before, but it's a lot of work and I'm not on top of things enough to keep it patched against current threats. Also, cloud IPs frequently get blocked but I wouldn't want it on my home network.
Sigh...
@hacks4pancakes A starting point, not an endorsement, but this appears to be a reasonable summary of commonly-mentioned options: https://m.ai6yr.org/@ai6yr/117264309648787445
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Holy crap he is getting shredded on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1xilgwk/comment/19ru2qt4r4r5u/
@hacks4pancakes Shreddit!
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@hacks4pancakes Not to toot *giggle* my own horn, but when I decided to de-Google two years ago, I did in fact consider the then-known, ahem, attitudes of the Proton CEO to be red flags & that's why I decided not to go with Proton, by far the most obvious option at the time.
When people tell us who they are, we should believe them & when a company is run by a person with questionable positions and/or ethics, we should assume that this is what the company stands for. Because it always is.
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@hacks4pancakes And nothing out there seems to fulfill all our criteria. Tuta appears to be a popular choice, but isn't without problems. I think that's another reason I hadn't already moved - when I last looked around, I wasn't happier about anything else.
I've done self-hosting before, but it's a lot of work and I'm not on top of things enough to keep it patched against current threats. Also, cloud IPs frequently get blocked but I wouldn't want it on my home network.
Sigh...
@GerardThornley @hacks4pancakes Check out small web hosting providers in Europe. They tend to care a lot more than the all the big names.
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I really didn’t have money on Proton crashing and burning as a trusted community partner and company due to leadership AI psychosis this rapidly. It’s incredibly disappointing and a huge loss.
speedrunning the Mullvad / 1Password playbook
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Holy crap he is getting shredded on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1xilgwk/comment/19ru2qt4r4r5u/
穴場のアウトレットショップ、全部激安です。ガラポンで高級品も当たります。在庫少なめなのでお早めに → https://jmty.io/shop/
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I really didn’t have money on Proton crashing and burning as a trusted community partner and company due to leadership AI psychosis this rapidly. It’s incredibly disappointing and a huge loss.
@hacks4pancakes Yeah... I made some quick adjustments to my own paid Proton subcription. Disappointing to see this, don't want to leave the product and need some time for off ramping and then on ramping elsewhere.
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@hacks4pancakes If you're not using AI to endlessly pentest your software (especially privacy-preserving software), your opps are 100% doing it and you're ngmi
@budududuroiu @hacks4pancakes did you read the article they posted as a follow-up. If not you might want to
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@Mx_Shankly @hacks4pancakes @mrclark Easy to say, but changing email addresses is not a trivial undertaking. That's not about all eggs in one basket. It's that email switching costs are very high.
@mweiss @Mx_Shankly @hacks4pancakes @mrclark
That's why it doesn't hurt to use your own domain. Some good mail providers (like mailbox.org) support this.
And if you don't like the mail provider any more, you move the domain with it's atrached mail adresses to another provider (or your own server).
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@GerardThornley @hacks4pancakes Check out small web hosting providers in Europe. They tend to care a lot more than the all the big names.
@afx @hacks4pancakes
I appreciate that suggestion, although I'm interested in how you classify "small"? e.g. migadu and posteo have come up in my search; would you class either of them as small?In general, I acknowledge small firms often have a 'mission' that's related more to their product rather than their profits, with larger companies leaning towards the latter. But there's also a lot of overhead running an email service, which makes for economies of scale.
There's presumably a goldilocks zone for email provider size - we just need to gather all the company stats and sort the list accordingly to find the best choices.
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@budududuroiu @hacks4pancakes did you read the article they posted as a follow-up. If not you might want to
@Ves I did, and I agree with Yen, you have to make it fast and secure, because everyone trying to break your software is racing you.
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I know I'm quoting huge chunks of the article and I apologize for that but it's _so_ mind-bogglingly filled with inanity I... I can't _not_.
These people, the ones _running_ the company, really have lost their minds and gone _all_ in on a technology they fundamentally do not understand.
Someone has convinced them LLMs/AI is _faster_ and _better_. It's... It's not really _either_. And it's being _dumped_ on the market right now.
@401matthall the beautiful irony of this is that his comments on AI are what’s going to kill the company.
the userbase absolutely hates this and a large enough chunk will move away.
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@jb my understanding is that their engineering folks have been told that they are no longer engineers, instead they are now AI babysitters
@ds yeah, just caught up with the rest of the thread, and the 404media article.
I would also be hunting for a different provider. What a shitshow.
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I really didn’t have money on Proton crashing and burning as a trusted community partner and company due to leadership AI psychosis this rapidly. It’s incredibly disappointing and a huge loss.
@hacks4pancakes I'm just.... I just don't know any more.
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@jb my understanding is that their engineering folks have been told that they are no longer engineers, instead they are now AI babysitters
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I really didn’t have money on Proton crashing and burning as a trusted community partner and company due to leadership AI psychosis this rapidly. It’s incredibly disappointing and a huge loss.
@hacks4pancakes I've been a paying Proton user for a decade, but it's clearly time to change. My annual plan renews in less than a month, so I'm watching this thread intently for replacement suggestions.
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If you use and particularly, pay for anything they make, you need to read this. It’s one of the worst I’ve seen even in the 20s.
🫠 I don’t think they’re recovering without the board removing executive leadership. https://www.404media.co/manifestos-fear-and-loser-thinking-inside-protons-ai-reckoning/
@hacks4pancakes agreed. Though even if Yen were removed today I would still be very wary of the existing code. It was built under conditions where employees felt unsafe bringing up security concerns and were pressured to stop even reviewing AI-generated code. So god knows what vulnerabilities are embedded there.
It's also hard to turn around a culture once it's been this way. Most of the people with genuine expertise in security and privacy no doubt have been driven out, and those who are most willing to uncritically say yes to anything are who are left. Getting those people to engage in critical thinking and speaking up, oof, takes more than a CEO change. Anyone who succeeds him will need years of committed work to undo cavalier attitudes, toxic communication, and lazy development practices.
