Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research.
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@dnavinci When I went back to Finland in 2017 I took a day-trip to Turku. I did not (do not) feel the need to see Kuopio again. (I *am* going to Tampere next March for the figure skating, which at least I've never been to before so at least if it's a disappointment I can say I didn't know.)
@wollman
To be honest, I have always really worried about exchanging students to rural areas...
I think best case scenario it's a recipe for an underwhelming experience.
Worst case is uhhh... Pretty bad. -
@wollman
To be honest, I have always really worried about exchanging students to rural areas...
I think best case scenario it's a recipe for an underwhelming experience.
Worst case is uhhh... Pretty bad.@dnavinci I think my parents looked a bit askance at sending me to live with a childless couple, but of course they were thousands of miles away and the only other option was to send me back home (and forfeit the exchange agency's fee, which IIRC was comparable to private-school tuition at the time). So two interesting months in Turku and then eight rather less pleasant months in an isolated lakefront house in rural north Savonia.
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@mrundkvist fascinating! Can you share links where we can learn more about this?
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I'm curious if there's a connection between this and the Hittites' emigration from Europe...
@ohir
They aren't identifiable until 1000 years after the Corded Ware expansion. But since they spoke Indo-European, they probably had the same steppe ancestry. I'm not aware of the Hittites originating from west of the Bosphorus? -
@paul @datarama @raymaccarthy @mrundkvist um, wild, but at least you seem to be making the argument that "white people" not as well adapted for survival as people from patriarchal countries (whatever that means).
@Iwillyeah@mastodon.ie @datarama@hachyderm.io @raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie @mrundkvist@archaeo.social "Patriarchal" in Russian means a traditional family, where the man is the head and the woman's primary role is to be a good wife and mother. Experience shows that only such families and peoples survive and leave sufficient offspring.
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@jk @NatureMC @mrundkvist it seems the Black plague may have ended by people developing strong immune responses to the disease…
@tokeriis @NatureMC @mrundkvist
Possible, but not yet scientific consensus. The paper got a critical reply and the authors wrote a rebuttal to that reply.
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@Iwillyeah@mastodon.ie @datarama@hachyderm.io @raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie @mrundkvist@archaeo.social "Patriarchal" in Russian means a traditional family, where the man is the head and the woman's primary role is to be a good wife and mother. Experience shows that only such families and peoples survive and leave sufficient offspring.
@paul @datarama @raymaccarthy @mrundkvist I am so relieved to hear I don't live in a patriarchal society anymore. Or at least I would be, if my children and I weren't dead
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@mrundkvist many thanks!
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@paul @datarama @raymaccarthy @mrundkvist I am so relieved to hear I don't live in a patriarchal society anymore. Or at least I would be, if my children and I weren't dead
@Iwillyeah@mastodon.ie @datarama@hachyderm.io @raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie @mrundkvist@archaeo.social The problem is that what you call ‘life’ isn’t really life. Life means development — and for that, a family needs to have and raise enough children (at least three). That requires teamwork with clearly defined roles and responsibilities. A structured, cooperative family model.
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Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research. Northern Europe was overrun by plague-spreading steppe nomads less than 5000 years ago, causing an almost complete population replacement.
It’s a 1492 event. Everybody knows that us Northern Europeans aren’t the original inhabitants of North America. But we aren’t even the original inhabitants of Northern Europe.
@mrundkvist Not in Sardinia, they are still 62% Early European Farmer in ancestry.
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@mrundkvist wow. What sources do you recommend read to learn more about this?
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@Iwillyeah@mastodon.ie @datarama@hachyderm.io @raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie @mrundkvist@archaeo.social The problem is that what you call ‘life’ isn’t really life. Life means development — and for that, a family needs to have and raise enough children (at least three). That requires teamwork with clearly defined roles and responsibilities. A structured, cooperative family model.
@paul @datarama @raymaccarthy @mrundkvist I'm going to ask you to reflect on the convenience of a world view that puts your demographic at the top of the pile and requires others to forgo self-determination in favour of your demographic's authority. It's telling that the minute women get choices, they choose personal quality of life over reproduction, but it's equally telling that Conservatives frame that choice as a literal existential threat.
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@paul @datarama @raymaccarthy @mrundkvist I'm going to ask you to reflect on the convenience of a world view that puts your demographic at the top of the pile and requires others to forgo self-determination in favour of your demographic's authority. It's telling that the minute women get choices, they choose personal quality of life over reproduction, but it's equally telling that Conservatives frame that choice as a literal existential threat.
@Iwillyeah@mastodon.ie @datarama@hachyderm.io @raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie @mrundkvist@archaeo.social The core issue is that prioritizing short‑term personal comfort over long‑term family formation has real demographic consequences. When a society consistently under‑reproduces, it faces an existential threat — not metaphorically, but mathematically. This isn’t about putting any group ‘on top’; it’s about the basic requirements for a society to survive and develop.
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@ohir
They aren't identifiable until 1000 years after the Corded Ware expansion. But since they spoke Indo-European, they probably had the same steppe ancestry. I'm not aware of the Hittites originating from west of the Bosphorus?@mrundkvist
Neither do I. The origins of Hittites as far as I had read through my interests in the Hittite's journey phenomenon still are a mystery. And I came to those interests by the Code of Nesilim path. We know it is a compilation of civil and criminal law as observed by society then – not a some genius lawmaker's work. It hints at much older culture and we know that this distinct culture had moved in. While the earliest record of the Code of Nesilim dates to the Old Kingdom period about 1650 B.C., its tablets refer to still earlier versions.So I got that fleeing thought about connection between the possible almost-extinction of North Europe’s population and the Hittites’ still unexplained choice of Hattusa locality. Harsh, but not that much for the people accustomed to Northern/Central Europe climate then. There is a ~500y gap, but this gap is to the written records we have, not to the Hittites people moving in a new area.
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@tokeriis @NatureMC @mrundkvist
Possible, but not yet scientific consensus. The paper got a critical reply and the authors wrote a rebuttal to that reply.
@jk @tokeriis @mrundkvist Thanks to both of you for the informations! That's the fascinating part of science: we don't get answers for eternity and it needs more research.
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@NatureMC
The hypothesis is that the plague originated in Central Asia and spread to Europe and that the Western Steppe Herders were slightly resistant to the plague. The plague either killed off so many Europeans that the WSH could move in or spread to Europe because of the migrating WSH. Or maybe both.
@mrundkvist@violanders Thanks. Sounds like a parallel to colonists bringing unknown diseases to indigenous people e.g. in Northern America. @mrundkvist
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@mrundkvist
Neither do I. The origins of Hittites as far as I had read through my interests in the Hittite's journey phenomenon still are a mystery. And I came to those interests by the Code of Nesilim path. We know it is a compilation of civil and criminal law as observed by society then – not a some genius lawmaker's work. It hints at much older culture and we know that this distinct culture had moved in. While the earliest record of the Code of Nesilim dates to the Old Kingdom period about 1650 B.C., its tablets refer to still earlier versions.So I got that fleeing thought about connection between the possible almost-extinction of North Europe’s population and the Hittites’ still unexplained choice of Hattusa locality. Harsh, but not that much for the people accustomed to Northern/Central Europe climate then. There is a ~500y gap, but this gap is to the written records we have, not to the Hittites people moving in a new area.
@ohir
The Corded Ware folks about 2800 would have been absolutely mystified by urban, literate Hittite society.
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@jk @tokeriis @mrundkvist Thanks to both of you for the informations! That's the fascinating part of science: we don't get answers for eternity and it needs more research.
@NatureMC @jk @mrundkvist Indeed, the claim and interpretation are quite significant, so one paper will not be the final say on this.
